THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL FINANCE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, March 24, 2026
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met with videoconference this day at 3 p.m. [ET] to study Supplementary Estimates (C) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2026.
Senator Claude Carignan (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Hello and welcome to all senators as well as the viewers across the country who are watching us on sencanada.ca. My name is Claude Carignan, senator from Quebec and chair of the Senate Committee on National Finance. Now, I would like to ask my colleagues to introduce themselves.
Senator Hébert: Good afternoon. Martine Hébert from Quebec.
[English]
Senator MacAdam: Jane MacAdam, Prince Edward Island.
Senator Ross: Krista Ross, New Brunswick.
Senator Cardozo: Andrew Cardozo, Ontario.
[Translation]
Senator Gignac: Clément Gignac, Kennebec senatorial division in Quebec.
Senator Galvez: Rosa Galvez from Quebec.
Senator Forest: Éric Forest, Gulf senatorial division, Quebec.
The Chair: Honourable senators, today we are beginning our study of the Supplementary Estimates (C) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2026.
For our first panel, we are pleased to welcome, from Indigenous Services Canada, Marc Geoffrion, Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Chief Financial Officer Sector, and Candice St-Aubin, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy and Partnerships. From Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, we welcome Manon Nadeau-Beaulieu, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, and Danielle White, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Indigenous Government.
Welcome and thank you for accepting our invitation to appear today.
We will now hear opening remarks from Mr. Geoffrion and Ms. Nadeau-Beaulieu.
Marc Geoffrion, Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Chief Financial Officer Sector, Indigenous Services Canada: Thank you for the invitation to discuss 2025-26 Supplementary Estimates (C) for Indigenous Services Canada, or ISC.
I am pleased to be here on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishnaabeg People.
As Chief Financial Officer at ISC, it is a great pleasure to join you today with several of my colleagues to discuss and answer any questions you may have on these estimates.
The Supplementary Estimates (C) 2025-26 reflect a net increase of $513 million, including $509 million in new funding, primarily in Vote 10, grants and contributions. With this increase, ISC’s total authorities for 2025-26 will be $27 billion.
[English]
This additional funding will enable Indigenous Services Canada to continue advancing reforms to the First Nations Child and Family Services Program while also supporting medical travel costs in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.
The key initiatives in these supplementary estimates include $348 million for reforms to the First Nations Child and Family Services Program to continue delivering the First Nations Child and Family Services Program in accordance with orders from the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal and to advance long-term reform of the program nationally.
The supplementary estimates include $156 million for medical travel costs in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories, enabling the department to enter into funding agreements with the Government of Nunavut and the Government of the Northwest Territories.
The supplementary estimates include $5 million to sustain the Major Projects Office and support its Indigenous Advisory Council to fund consultation and community readiness activities which relate to major projects. Funding will be delivered through the Strategic Partnerships Initiative, with decisions remaining with the Major Projects Office within the Privy Council Office.
[Translation]
Alongside supporting these key initiatives, our department has continued to work closely with Indigenous partners and has made measurable progress to address socio-economic gaps and Indigenous self-determination by advancing the transfer of services and investing in community-led solutions.
[English]
Foremost, we have facilitated the exercise of jurisdiction by Indigenous governing bodies, supporting the signing of eight new coordination agreements in 2024-25, bringing a total of 14 signed agreements under An Act respecting First Nations, Inuit and Métis children, youth and families by March 31, 2025.
As of March 2025, there were 18 active coordination agreement discussion tables with at least four new tables expected to restart within the next six months. A total of 16 Indigenous child and family service laws aided by the act were in force.
In response to natural disasters, the efficiency of the emergency response and evacuation processes has improved since 2022-23, with the percentage of short-term evacuees who have returned to their community within three months increasing from 82% to 100% in 2024-25.
Additionally, the department has made clear progress in environmental and infrastructure outcomes on-reserve, including major improvements in solid waste management, contaminated site remediation and water systems. In 2024-25, the department met its target of having 97% of on-reserve public water systems meeting the Guidelines for Canadian Drinking Water Quality.
Indigenous Services Canada has also supported on-reserve housing needs in collaboration with the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to advance new builds, renovations and lot servicing in First Nations communities. In 2024-25, this work included 619 completed projects, 1,040 new homes, 3,117 renovations and upgrades, 745 serviced or acquired lots and 3,299 ongoing projects.
[Translation]
Lastly, graduation outcomes are improving: On-reserve secondary school graduation rates are rising, and the number of First Nations students funded by the department who complete post-secondary programs has grown from 1,148 in 2021-22 to 2,056 in 2024-25.
I look forward to discussing any aspects of these estimates with you and welcome your questions. Meegwetch. Qujannamiik. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Geoffrion.
Manon Nadeau-Beaulieu, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada: First of all, thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable senators, for the invitation to discuss the 2025-26 Supplementary Estimates (C) for Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada.
[English]
Let me begin by recognizing that we come together here today on the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people. As Chief Financial Officer of this department, it is a pleasure to present and answer any questions you may have on these estimates, along with my colleagues, namely Danielle White, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government.
[Translation]
In steadfast pursuit of our commitment to renewing the relationship with Indigenous peoples, and to advancing prosperity across the North and Arctic, the 2025-26 Supplementary Estimates (C) reflect a net increase of $138.8 million, comprised of $109.1 million in new funding along with $29.7 million in transfers from other departments. This brings the total of authorities for 2025-26 to $14.6 billion, which represents a $3.3 billion reduction compared to 2024-25 total authorities.
[English]
These investments will drive tangible action and meaningful progress toward Indigenous self-determination, supporting their transition into a new era of self-governance, stability and long‑term prosperity.
[Translation]
For example, new funding includes $36 million for the renewal of the Tŝilhqot’in Pathway Agreement aimed at strengthening the nation’s governance capacity, nation‑rebuilding and implementation of declared Aboriginal rights and title.
[English]
Additionally, $25.9 million in new funding will be provided to nine First Nations in British Columbia following the ratification of their respective comprehensive treaties as part of concluding treaty table negotiations.
[Translation]
These actions will in turn directly contribute to the Government of Canada’s commitment to reconciliation and self‑government, as well as improved nation-to-nation, government‑to-government and Inuit-Crown relationships.
[English]
As you know, resolving claims outside of the courts is critical to strengthen relationships and provides a balanced approach that supports both individual compensation and forward-looking investments in healing, wellness, education, language, culture and commemoration.
[Translation]
Specifically, $16.9 million will support the settlement of litigation, ensuring redress as well as opportunities to further economic and community well-being.
[English]
To sustain the Major Projects Office and its Indigenous Advisory Council with respect to Indigenous consultation on nation-building projects, $2.3 million in new funding will be provided to streamline processes by establishing clear, mutually agreed-upon approaches and supporting meaningful participation grounded in free, prior and informed consent. It will strengthen collaboration and ensure a coordinated, whole-of-government approach to consultation activities.
[Translation]
In tandem, and as part of the horizontal Trade Infrastructure Strategy, new funding will be provided to support accelerated regulatory processes with respect to major projects in the North. Outcomes are expected to bolster Indigenous communities’ capacity and access, in order to effectively participate in regulatory processes through improved information availability and enhanced inter-jurisdictional collaboration.
Budget 2025 allocated a total of $25.6 million over four years, starting in 2025-26, to support and further the participation of Indigenous Peoples in northern impact assessment and regulatory processes over the coming years.
A total of $25.8 million in new funding will be provided to the Northwest Territories and Yukon governments, representing all resource revenues collected by Canada from the Beaufort Sea oil and gas since 1993. This fulfills Canada’s obligation to transfer management, regulation and associated revenues to territorial governments. Most importantly, it ensures that resource revenues stay in the North, generating real economic benefits, strengthening self-determination and helping reduce long‑standing regional disparities.
[English]
Most importantly, it will ensure that resource revenues stay in the North, generating real economic benefits, strengthening self‑determination and helping reduce long-standing regional disparities.
[Translation]
These Supplementary Estimates (C) will allow the Government of Canada to continue the renewal of the relationship between Canada and First Nations, Inuit and Métis, and to further advance the work in the North and in the Arctic.
I am pleased to answer any questions. Thank you. Meegwetch.
Senator Forest: Thank you for being here.
My first question is for Mr. Geoffrion and concerns the First Nations Child and Family Services Program.
I understand that there has been an increase in funding since 2016, from $600 million to $3.9 billion, which is six times as much. Given these investments, could you tell us about improvements to child and family services since that 2016 judgment?
Mr. Geoffrion: Thank you.
There have been significant increases in the program over the last several years. That is certainly an indication that the program was underfunded for a number of years.
I will invite my colleague Karen Campbell to give you more details on the recent results of the program.
[English]
Karen Campbell, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Children, Families and Learning, Indigenous Services Canada: I believe you asked about the improvements being made to the delivery of child and family services commensurate with investments that the department has received. As you know, Canada has submitted its plan to the tribunal around improvements for the program, with two main pillars: One is national reform of the program outside of Ontario, and the other is the negotiation of regional program reform agreements.
We’re actively working right now at the pace and direction of partners on how they want to improve the program and work through regional agreements to best reflect their priorities and determination for their children into the future.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: In the 2016 ruling, we had investments on the order of $600 million, and today we’re talking about $3.9 billion, which is 6.5 times more.
Where are the improvements? For example, has the graduation rate been increased? Have cases of violence been reduced? What are the concrete results of this major investment in terms of conditions for children and families? I think it’s a commendable effort, but I’m trying to find out which sectors have been improved and whether these children and families are now safer, better trained and have fewer dropouts. Surely you have measurement indicators. For example, you can work in a community and reduce the dropout rate, so that you are able to assess that compared to the amounts invested.
[English]
Ms. Campbell: We have been able to greatly increase the number of children who are in family and community care and staying with kinship units as well as funds for protection and post-majority support services. We can provide the exact numbers and amounts for that to the committee, but those are the areas of the greatest increase.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: Did you have initial targets and objectives? Is there a response plan that was defined at the outset and whose progress can then be measured?
[English]
Ms. Campbell: I’m not able to speak to that, but I can provide that information to the committee. I’m simply not the one who can provide that.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: Could you send us that information in writing? This seems fundamental to me given the significant effort the government has made in this crucial sector. We need to be able to assess progress in meeting the targets.
The Chair: Could you send us that information quickly? March 31 is fast approaching.
Mr. Geoffrion: We’ll do it quickly.
[English]
Senator Cardozo: I want to continue that line of questioning, so please stay with us, Ms. Campbell. Can you give us an update on where we are in terms of the negotiations between the Government of Canada and the First Nations Child & Family Caring Society? Do we have a complete agreement or is part of it still in court?
Ms. Campbell: Canada’s plan was tabled with the tribunal in December, and we are waiting at this point for the tribunal to return on whether that plan was accepted. There was another plan tabled at the same time from the First Nations Child & Family Caring Society, and that is what we’re waiting for right now from the tribunal.
Senator Cardozo: The payments don’t begin until the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal has said, yes, this meets the requirements they had. At this point, what is the form you’re planning in terms of how those payments will be made?
Ms. Campbell: There are a number of elements. On the plan, this is very complex, and this is not my usual area of expertise; I will tell you that right now. I will give you the best information that I can give you, and I will be able to follow up afterwards. Regardless, there are a number of elements of that. There is the Ontario agreement that is continuing to be reviewed. There is also a national plan that has been tabled and regional agreements that have been put on the table regarding which we are now meeting with partners.
In terms of individual payments, my understanding is that we are waiting on the return, and then we will be advancing on those.
Senator Cardozo: Is there going to be yet another step or consultation about how the payments will be made to the individuals? Would it be a lump-sum payment? Would it be spread out over a period of time?
Ms. Campbell: I can’t answer that.
Senator Cardozo: Okay.
If I have time, I have one question for Ms. Nadeau-Beaulieu.
You talked about keeping resource benefits in the North, which is really important. How does this dovetail with the expenditures we’re planning to make in terms of national defence? Certainly, people from the North have been saying to us that they would like to see bases in the North and manufacturing in the North. What is your sense of what can happen from that whole new expenditure?
Ms. Nadeau-Beaulieu: We have new funding coming in to get in touch with First Nations and the Inuit up North to actually get consultation going, even prior to having all of those investments, in order to ensure they are at the table at the onset of any project.
If we have time, I would like to ask my colleague Georgina Lloyd, the Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for the North, to answer some of your questions.
Georgina Lloyd, Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs Organization, Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada: Good afternoon, and thank you for the question.
I think you are referring to the $25 million that is provided through the infrastructure and trade corridors umbrella. Part of that funding comes through the Supplementary Estimates (C), and it is to support, in part, the capacity of northerners to engage with Canada and to be ready and prepare for what I would broadly characterize as development to come.
I would separate out the Department of National Defence funding because, of course, there will be efforts by the Department of National Defence to capture what is a commitment under NATO and how they might be rolling out some of the announcements that the Prime Minister made a few weeks ago in Yellowknife, for example. It is not entirely separate, but it does sit alongside the other announcements made, which were the major projects referred to the Major Projects Office.
The funding in the Supplementary Estimates (C) that is coming to this department would be to help northerners prepare and be ready for and engage with Canada in the co-management regime of those projects and to be able to get them the capacity they need to make good decisions about the environment and natural resources.
Senator Cardozo: Thank you.
It is a once-in-a-generation chance to make some big expenditures, and I hope we do the best in terms of developing a skilled workforce in the North and boosting the economy of the North where we can.
Ms. Lloyd: This funding sits alongside funding in other departments and organizations as well, which would provide for the capacity building of partners.
I would point out that in Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, there is funding dedicated to the Northern Abandoned Mine Reclamation Program and the Federal Contaminated Sites Action Plan, so we have funding that is earmarked under those programs to be able to invest in communities and build their capacity to engage in procurement and the delivery of remediation activities. A lot of those activities are about mobilizing environmental remediation, which is sometimes very similar to mobilizing in other big ways across the North.
That type of capacity building that we have done through those active programs is really beneficial in building community‑level capacity.
Senator Ross: I think this question is for Mr. Geoffrion.
The supplementary estimates provide $155.6 million in funding for medical travel costs in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories. What are the parameters of the programs this will cover in terms of eligibility and reimbursement? Is the Yukon part of this?
Mr. Geoffrion: Thank you for your question.
Yes, we have an item in the Supplementary Estimates (C) to compensate Nunavut and the Northwest Territories for the increase in costs for medical travel. I will pass this to my colleague Candice St-Aubin who has a lot of expertise in this.
Candice St-Aubin, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy and Partnerships, Indigenous Services Canada: Thank you very much for the question.
This is the second or third year we have been engaging with the two territorial governments. It is a supplementary amount that they pay to offset some of the costs for their citizens to fly south to access insured medical services and access to primary care services that may not be available in their territory. This goes alongside the non-insured health benefit that allows for that type of medical travel, and it’s based on actuals at the end of the year. However, we use a proxy based on previous expenditures. Every year, we have this year-over-year approach. We are currently in negotiations to finalize what that would look like, and the Supplementary Estimates (C) funding would allow for offsetting the costs of what they have already incurred.
We have been doing this for about seven years now. Actually, in response to the senator with regard to the investments with the Department of National Defence, Budget 2025 announced a health infrastructure assessment to address things like medical travel so that citizens of those two territories can access care closer to home. That was directly in relation to the ongoing and increasing costs of medical travel.
The Yukon is not a part of this. They do not deliver non‑insured health benefits directly with the Government of Canada with Indigenous Services Canada, so it is tailored at this point to those other two territorial governments: Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.
Senator Ross: Is there an opportunity to provide some of those services closer to home to get rid of some of these costs?
Ms. St-Aubin: That is what we encourage for the territorial government. As you know, the provision of primary care and access to primary care falls under the Canada Health Act which is, of course, the direct transfers to provinces and territories. We offset for registered First Nations and eligible Inuit based upon land claims and Inuit governments.
It is not for all territories, but when you look at Nunavut, they have a very high percentage of Inuit residents, so it is a bit of a different relationship with Nunavut.
We are looking through the northern health infrastructure assessment with the Department of National Defence. Health Canada is the lead with Indigenous Services Canada and my colleague Georgina Lloyd through Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada to collectively work with the territorial governments to do those critical infrastructure assessments. Ideally, if it falls within the scope of NATO commitments, it could be a dual-use purpose for some of that health infrastructure to support what could be a larger presence in the North.
Senator Galvez: Thank you very much for being here.
It is nice to have the two departments because in this committee in the past and even ongoing, we find there’s a lot of overlap of what you do and what they do, and I don’t know if that is positive or negative. Based on the answers to my colleague Senator Forest, we don’t know where we are with respect to the financing that we’re providing in improving the situation.
Because you are both services, you are asking for funds to sustain the Major Projects Office, which is headquartered in Calgary but has offices here in Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal and Whitehorse. What is the difference in what you do in your own department? Why are both departments requesting funds for the same purpose? Exactly for what are you asking for these funds? This is for Mr. Geoffrion and Ms. Nadeau-Beaulieu.
Ms. Nadeau-Beaulieu: For the Major Projects Office, Crown‑Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada is really using the funding to enable some co-developed consultation protocol with First Nations and Indigenous Peoples. We also have different resource centres that service First Nations and Métis, allowing them to actually be consulted in a proper and appropriate way when it comes to major projects, including the Building Canada Act. I don’t know, Ms. White, if you have something else that you may want to add. It’s really about consultation with First Nations for which we are getting funding for the Major Projects Office and to help out our colleagues in other departments to properly reach out to First Nations, Inuit and Métis.
Senator Galvez: What is the other service doing?
Mr. Geoffrion: With respect to Indigenous Services Canada, the funding that we’re receiving in the current fiscal year is also used for consultation, specifically in the areas of infrastructure as it relates to infrastructure programs, as well as in our land and economic development areas.
Senator Galvez: Can you explain this overlap? Are you asking for money to do exactly the same thing?
Mr. Geoffrion: I’m not in a position to be able to explain that difference.
Ms. St-Aubin: If I may add, I think what’s important is we have a level of representation when it comes to actual projects — shovel-ready and boots on the ground — which would be through our infrastructure investments that go directly to the community. We have a direct relationship with those First Nations. My colleagues at Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada also have a treaty obligation. They also work directly with modern treaty holders. We don’t hold that. Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada would hold that relationship as a treaty organization. At times, we find it’s a little more efficient. It may not look efficient, but from a communities’ perspective, if they have a direct line into an organization, they may choose to come to Indigenous Services Canada if we already have a direct funding relationship with them, whereas treaty organizations may choose to go to Crown‑Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada directly because they have a treaty and Crown relationship.
Senator Galvez: You are aware that many Indigenous communities still experience what is called the two-door problem.
The Chair: Do you have any further questions?
Senator Galvez: No. That’s okay.
[Translation]
Senator Gignac: Welcome to the witnesses and thank you for your work.
I’d like to discuss with the Indigenous Services Canada representatives the Auditor General’s reaction from October, which I would describe as a bit harsh.
She said that the department had not made enough progress on implementing the measures, referring to the fact that since 2019, there has been an 84% increase in program spending, but that, in many ways, in terms of audits, the recommendations had not been implemented.
I haven’t had time to go through the report in its entirety. Usually, we entrust that to our colleague Senator Marshall, who announced her retirement today and who will be greatly missed.
Can you elaborate on the Auditor General’s reaction and the measures you intend to put in place?
Mr. Geoffrion: We do indeed accept the comments and recommendations of the Auditor General, who has noted a number of reactions to previous audits that are still outstanding. I invite my colleague Candice St-Aubin to elaborate.
Ms. St-Aubin: Thank you for the question. I will answer it in English.
[English]
We have appeared before this committee, and there has been an increase in investment for sure. I used to work within the health space as the senior assistant deputy minister of the First Nations and Inuit Health Branch. We don’t necessarily always agree with what the Auditor General and her office find, but I think we did pretty well in the health space. It is important to recognize that this was an area that was chronically underfunded, and the level of readiness forcing communities to meet some of these requirements was not equal across the board.
When we talk about clinical care and the health care space, we did see an increase in the recruitment and retention of our nurses. We increased our training such as wound training and cultural competency training, which is extremely important, as you can imagine, for First Nations with our nursing stations. We were also able to address some of the personal protective equipment concerns that the Auditor General had replaced.
That’s not to say we don’t have areas to improve upon, including in health infrastructure, which was an element of the Auditor General’s report. We will be tabling our management action plan to address the remaining items that were listed, but we do feel that we have made certain levels at a pace that communities could adapt to and train up to. Of course, health human resources remain our critical area of priority in relation to what the Auditor General did find, and we feel that we are trying to train and ensure that those nurses and other health professionals within those communities meet the standard and that our sites are accredited, which was another one of the findings that the Auditor General identified back in 2015 when these first reports were done.
[Translation]
Senator Gignac: In June, when this government introduced Bill C-5 on major projects, there was a strong reaction from Indigenous people. It may not be a large amount, but $5 million was provided to support the Major Projects Office and the Indigenous Advisory Council. Is $5 million a lot of money or not? Is it recurring? What does that amount signify?
Can you tell us more about the project? The additional $500 million you are requesting may seem relatively small, but it is more for the principle of the support you will provide to Indigenous peoples with the Major Projects Office.
Mr. Geoffrion: I mentioned earlier that the funds were used primarily for consultation with our partners. The total investment is $40 million over three years. This year, the 2025-26 portion, the investment is $5 million.
Senator Gignac: It’s for three years. Okay. Thank you.
Senator Dalphond: My question is for Mr. Geoffrion.
You talked about programs to support or improve housing for Indigenous people. You mentioned that 1,000 units were built this year. Can you tell us the average price of the new homes? Are we talking about houses or apartments in high-rises? What kind of housing is it?
Mr. Geoffrion: I’m not in a position to answer you directly about those details. However, my colleague Nelson Barbosa, Director General, Infrastructure and Governance, will give you that information.
[English]
Nelson Barbosa, Director General, Infrastructure and Governance, Indigenous Services Canada: Thank you for the question. With respect to housing, you’re correct; there’s significant investment happening across the country. This year alone, we’re projecting over $1.3 billion in investment in housing in over 600 First Nations communities.
In terms of the average price, it varies greatly in the same way it varies greatly in Canada’s municipalities. A normal built home south of 60 or closer to the American border certainly costs less than it would in a rural or remote community. It’s typically upwards of 70% to 75% more expensive when you go into remote communities.
In terms of the types of builds, the investment provided by Indigenous Services Canada does three things. It builds new homes, it renovates homes to ensure they provide healthy places for families and children to live and thrive in and it also supports the building of new lots or subdivisions, given the demands of homes on Canadians, in particular First Nations, is so acute. First Nations — as they do for many of the investments in our department — control those investments and how they’re expended. Typically, these are single-family homes and allow families to be repatriated or to live independently. Typically, that is the choice of the Chief and council, as is their prerogative. There have been other examples of multiplex buildings, eldercare homes and duplexes. This is a huge myriad in terms of the cost and also the modality.
Senator Dalphond: Do you have an average price for these homes in the South or closer to what it costs to build homes in the same area compared to in the North? You said it will be about 75% more expensive, so can you give us figures on that spectrum?
Mr. Barbosa: I can give you the figures in terms of how we assess our costing needs. It’s probably not reflective of what the actual costs are on the ground because, again, those are dictated by communities.
The cost now of a home south of 60 or closer to the U.S. border is roughly about $300,000 to $400,000 per unit. When you are costing units in remote communities that are fly-in only, the average cost is around C$600,000 to C$650,000 approximately. Whether or not those are the actual costs borne by communities is unknown, but in terms of our assessment and how we present our numbers to Finance Canada, that’s typically how we assess the need. That’s based on construction and population indices.
Senator Dalphond: You have a transfer from the Department of Natural Resources for the Canada Greener Homes Affordability Program of $23 million. Is that for renovation or for existing new homes that you’re building?
Mr. Barbosa: Thank you for the question.
That’s predominantly for renovations of homes to make them more climate resilient and also to provide a greater level of environmental protection for a particular unit, but it’s for existing units.
Senator Dalphond: What is the average amount that is invested in renovation?
Mr. Barbosa: In its totality? We are spending $1.3 billion this year. I would say the vast majority of costs are to support the building of new homes. I would only be guesstimating, but I would say approximately 20% to 25% of that $1.3 billion is spent on renovating the current housing supply on First Nations lands.
Senator Dalphond: Thank you.
Senator MacAdam: Most of my questions have already been asked, but I am going to follow up with a short question based on what Senator Gignac was talking about regarding the Auditor General’s 2025 report.
It was mentioned that a management action plan would be tabled with regard to the action to be taken on the recommendations. I’m just wondering when that would be tabled.
Ms. St-Aubin: Thank you for your question.
I don’t have the date on hand. I want to say it’s imminent, but that is kind of a generalization. I don’t have the actual date. The last time we were here, we mentioned that we were working on that plan, and we do have a parliamentary requirement date. We can submit that in writing for sure.
Senator MacAdam: Okay. Have you appeared before the Standing Committee on Public Accounts with regard to this report?
Ms. St-Aubin: Not yet. It’s been moved several times.
Senator MacAdam: But you have been asked to appear at the Public Accounts Committee?
Ms. St-Aubin: Yes, we have been.
Senator MacAdam: Thank you.
Senator Pupatello: In your remarks, Mr. Geoffrion, you mentioned that 69% of the communities are on proper safe drinking water. I think that was the percentage you used.
How many in total required it? What does 69% represent? How many communities are there still to go?
Mr. Geoffrion: Thank you. We’re going to have Mr. Barbosa come back to the table with those details for you.
Mr. Barbosa: It’s great to be back. Thanks for the question.
I believe the quote was 97%. There are approximately 800 to 900 water systems on Canada’s First Nations. I believe the actual number is 97.5% of those systems meet or exceed Canada’s drinking water guidelines.
Senator Pupatello: That may be higher than some of our provinces. I’m impressed. That’s great, actually. I think that goal was set in 2015.
Mr. Barbosa: That’s right.
Senator Pupatello: I’m really grateful to see the number has climbed to that high of a percentage.
Mr. Barbosa: There’s been significant investment.
To your other question about what remains, there are currently 40 drinking water advisories in 38 communities. I think it’s important to distinguish that not every drinking water advisory is the same. In some cases, we’re talking about an entire community, and in other cases, there were water advisories for one sink in one building. That is clearly an apples and oranges conversation.
In terms of your comment on public reporting, every one of these drinking water advisories is available to the Canadian public on our website. It talks about the type of advisory, the effects, the level of investment and where we’re at. I don’t believe that all provinces and territories do that, but that’s something the Government of Canada certainly does. Given the priority of this file, it’s right to do so.
Senator Pupatello: Super. Today in the chamber, Senator McCallum asked about next year’s budget, but her commentary was around mental health supports, Jordan’s Principle, urban programming, friendship centres and operating budgets. As she saw it, they would cease to have funding next week. That’s what she asked our Government Representative about today.
Could you make a comment on that, acknowledging this is the last fiscal quarter we’re in at the moment? You have over half a billion dollars coming through this procedure. I’m curious if you have a comment on those items for which some are not based on‑reserve — I get that.
Mr. Geoffrion: Yes, thank you for that.
The Main Estimates for next year for the department total $24.2 billion. Our current financial authorities for 2025-26 amount to $27.2 billion. There appears to be a $3-billion decrease. You also have to remember that the Main Estimates don’t include the funding that will be received through the Supplementary Estimates (A), (B) and (C) next year. There are a number of sunsetters that will be presented in the Supplementary Estimates (A) and (B) next year.
We anticipate that our total authorities will be relatively constant, and there may be a small drop. Also, as announced in the fall budget of 2025, there is a Comprehensive Expenditure Review that mandates the department to provide proposals for $994 million in savings per year.
Ms. St-Aubin: It’s $494 million.
Mr. Geoffrion: That’s what I meant: $494 million per year.
Senator Pupatello: Just on that, 15% is across the board, but there are at least four to six areas across the government that are mandated at 2%. Both departments here are that 2%. Is that correct?
Mr. Geoffrion: Yes.
Senator Pupatello: But you’re still sort of picking. Based on what you’re saying, can we determine that the friendship centres won’t suddenly go to zero next year? Is that what you’re suggesting?
Mr. Geoffrion: Specifically on the friendship centres, I’ll let Ms. St-Aubin answer that.
Senator Pupatello: Just by way of example.
Ms. St-Aubin: For sure. They were all my programs when I was over at the Health and Social Sector. We are waiting for a series of sunsetters, which is why they wouldn’t necessarily appear in the public-facing information. We’ve seen a couple of news reports.
For the friendship centres, on that specific case, they currently have an A-base from when it used to be the Urban Aboriginal Strategy a few decades ago. There is a constant amount. We do have a series of other top-ups from previous budgets that we are waiting for decisions on.
That being said, we are in constant conversation with the friendship centres to ensure that we’re working together because we cannot predict what the decisions will be, much like the Comprehensive Expenditure Review. We are aware that this may seem off with what folks are seeing in our Departmental Plan and other public-facing documents.
Senator Pupatello: I’m not sure if I’ve run the clock.
The Chair: You have time.
Senator Pupatello: Only to suggest, then, regarding those comments made by Senator McCallum, is it reasonable that she should be worried about each of those items?
Mr. Geoffrion: At this point, there are a number of programs that we are securing funding for, and we do have funding decisions that will appear in the Supplementary Estimates (A) and (B). We have others that we do not yet have decisions on about the friendship centres.
Senator Pupatello: I see. It’s in progress as we’re speaking?
Ms. St-Aubin: Exactly. All departments are required to find savings. I think it’s fair to say that Indigenous Services Canada is not absent from that, to your reference.
There are some things that have been made clear, with direct services to Canadians being one of those lenses that will be applied. I think it’s normal to anticipate some reductions, given what was announced in the Comprehensive Expenditure Review.
Senator Pupatello: Okay, thank you.
Senator Cardozo: I wanted to come back to the issue of friendship centres that my colleague raised.
Is there doubt about the value of them? My sense of friendship centres is they do enormously good work across the country. They’ve been built over many years. First, which department are they funded from?
Ms. St-Aubin: Indigenous Services Canada is a component, but they are actually funded by several federal departments. I wouldn’t want to suppose their influence or their impact, I would say, on urban communities. This is not an exercise on whether, as a public official, I feel they are effective. I wouldn’t want to speak out of place. Decisions will be made around outcomes and impacts, et cetera. I wouldn’t be in a position to assume what decisions will be taken in other parts outside of the public service, but we do have an ongoing conversation happening right now with the friendship centres and their broader provincial‑territorial network.
Senator Cardozo: In terms of the estimates, when would we see those?
Ms. St-Aubin: Again, I cannot predetermine. As we wait for the decisions to come in, I can’t determine or predict when those decisions will come.
Senator Cardozo: Will the money around the friendship centres decision appear in subsequent supplementary estimates?
Ms. St-Aubin: They will appear in future supplementary estimates, yes.
Mr. Geoffrion: Depending on the timing, they may be Supplementary Estimates (A), (B) or (C). It depends on the timing of the decisions.
Senator Cardozo: Thanks.
[Translation]
Senator Dalphond: Mr. Geoffrion, you mentioned — and I believe Ms. St-Aubin did as well — that part of the funds were used to build new homes in a program for people who go back to their reserve when they have lived off-reserve.
In terms of numbers, how many are we talking about? Are we talking about a few hundred or a few thousand people a year?
Mr. Geoffrion: We don’t have that information.
Ms. St-Aubin: It depends on the community, the reserve and even the individuals, so we can’t estimate the number. In terms of people, it would be around 49% to 51%. These are people who go out into the workforce and then come back. It’s quite balanced, but it varies from year to year. It’s hard to get a yearly estimate.
Senator Dalphond: Is the statistic simply the reserve population as a whole, and that would be where there is no significant movement?
Ms. St-Aubin: By specific reserve, no. For as long as I’ve been working on bills related to the Indian Act, it has been estimated that Bill S-3 — which is now Bill S-2 — has roughly 49% to 51% who leave and then come back.
Senator Dalphond: Thank you.
The Chair: You have answered all our questions, and we thank you.
We will suspend for one hour and reconvene at 5 p.m.
(The committee adjourned.)